Indo-Canadian Interview 48
In: icohc:19; local: Interview_48; uuid: 7839d944-79ef-4435-8f2f-2813f3aad3f2;; (1985)
Audio
Zugriff:
iL est originaire de Jandiala, au Punjab. Il est arrivé au Canada en 1930, à l’âge de dix ans. Il s’est marié aux Indes en 1939, mais il est rentré seul au Canada. Sa famille est venue au Canada vers 1954. Son père était au Canada depuis 1906. Il est arrivé pendant la dépression et il était difficile de trouver du travail en raison de la dépression. Sa mère a dû rentrer aux Indes pendant cette période. Pour survivre, son père coupait du bois dans la forêt qu’il revendait par la suite ; il gagnait 1$ par jour. Il allait à l’école, mais il a commencé à travailler dans les scieries à plein temps lorsqu’il avait 15 ans. En 1933, travaillait 10 heures par jour à 0,10$ l’heure. Il était difficile de trouver du travail. Les travailleurs des scieries habitaient dans des dortoirs et un cuisinier préparait leurs repas. Les travailleurs étaient tous des hommes seuls, dont plusieurs avaient dû laisser femme et enfants aux Indes. Il croit que le syndicat fut implanté en 1942. Auparavant, les travailleurs seniors ne pouvaient pas acheter de maison parce que la scierie les obligeait constamment à déménager. Le syndicat a mis fin à cette insécurité d’emploi ; les gens ont donc commencé à s’installer de façon permanente et à faire venir leur famille. Chaque nationalité possédait son dortoir attitré. Les Blancs gagnaient 0,10$ l’heure de plus que les gens d’origine ethnique différente et ils occupaient les meilleurs emplois. Les conditions de travail étaient très difficiles pour les Indiens. Il convoitait un poste de niveleur, mais les employeurs préféraient accorder les promotions aux Blancs. Il s’est battu pour obtenir le poste. Les superviseurs appréciaient les Indiens parce qu’ils travaillaient pour des salaires inférieurs et ils n’étaient pas belligérants, contrairement aux travailleurs Blancs. Les Indiens étaient habitués au travail physique ardu parce qu’ils étaient des fermiers costauds. Les travailleurs caucasiens voulaient que les Indiens fassent partie du syndicat parce qu’ils craignaient que les scieries n’embauchent que les travailleurs indiens si les Blancs devenaient syndiqués. Le syndicat a unifié les travailleurs de toutes les races. Il habitait à Duncan et le barbier refusait de couper les cheveux des Indiens. Il se souvient d’avoir été dans un restaurant avec son père où tous les clients Blancs furent servis, mais lui et son père furent ignorés. Certains cinémas refusaient l’entrée aux Indiens et sur le traversier, les Indiens devaient demeurer sur le pont inférieur. Il décrit l’arrivée des syndicats dans les scieries et explique qu’après l’indépendance des Indes, les indo-canadiens furent mieux traités. Certaines scieries appartenaient à des indo-canadiens et il explique que pendant la dépression, les salaires versés aux Indiens dans ces scieries étaient inférieurs à ceux payés aux Indiens dans les scieries appartenant à des Blancs. L’arrivée des syndicats dans les scieries a mis fin aux disparités salariales basées sur la race. Il décrit la situation politique aux Indes et partage son opinion sur les exigences des Sikhs. Il décrit les indo-canadiens comme étant des personnes laborieuses et prêtes à accepter des emplois de toutes sortes. Il raconte qu’à son arrivée, la majorité des Indiens n’était pas éduquée, contrairement à aujourd’hui. Les Indiens travaillaient très fort et ils envoyaient de l’argent à leur famille aux Indes. ; [This transcript was created by optical character recognition (OCR) software and the accuracy depends on the quality of scanned images and complexity of original text.] SIKHS IN CANADA Interviewer: Professor, B. S.: Solaria Department of Sociology SIKHS IN CANADA Interviewer: Professor, Bhapitjder Singh Bolaria Date of the Interview: Time begin: 1:30 Language: The interview would be conducted primarily (in Punjabi language B. S.: How old are you Informant: I am 65. B. S.: You are married? Informant: Yes, I am married. B. S.: How many children do you have? Informant: We had four children, the one who was Pharmacist he died three weeks ago. B. S.: How many daughters and sons do you have? Informant: Three boys and one girl. B. S.: You are from Punjab, you told me that before, what is the village? Informant: Jandiala and District Jullundhur. B. S.: How old were you when you came here? Informant: I was ten years old. B. S.: Which year was that? Informant: In 1930. B. S.: You were no;t married at that time? Informant: No, I was not. B. S.: When did you get married then? Informant: I got married in 1939- B. S.: You got married here? Informant: No, I was married in Punjab, District Ludhiana. B. S.: Did you go back to get married? Informant: Yes, I went back and came back within year. page 2 B. S.: When you came back, your family came with you? Informant: No, she came later on. B. S.: When did she come then? Informant: When I came back here then the War broke out, and I could not go back at the time of War. So, after that I went back to India. B. S.: When did you go back then? Informant: I went back in 1946. B. S.: And how long did you stay there in India? Informant: I came in 1948. B. S.: Then your family came with you at that time? Informant: No, my family did not come with me at that time. She came after four or five years. B. S.: It might be in 1953 or 1954? Informant: They came in 1954 approximately. B. S.: When you came here first, you were studying in India? Informant: Yes, I was studying. B. S.: You were farmers back in India? Informant: Yes, we are farmers. B. S.: Tell me what was your reason to come to Canada? Informant: My father was here. He went back in 1930 and brought us here. We were three my brother and ray mother but my sister did not come at that time. B. S.: When your father came here in Canada? Informant: He came here in 1906. B. S.: How did he come here, do you have any idea about it? Informant: At that time Canada was open, you could come freely. He got the permission to come here. So, he came in those days. B. S.: How did he come, do you know what was the condition when he came here at that time? Informant: Like bunch of people used to come togather. They came in a group when they came here then they found work in the Mill. B. S.: When you came here, do you remember the condition of India at that time? page 3 Informant: I do not have much knowledge about it because I was little at that time, but you come to know the difference when you come here, like you do the comparison as this country is better. B. S.: So, you did not have any problem to come here because your father was already here? Informant: No, at that time father could bring his children who are under' 18, that is why my father brought us here at that time. But that was very difficult time the depression was here in 1931 or 1930 it was hard to find work all the Mills stopped to work. My mother went back to India, and we used to cut the woods of the bushes and used to make a dollar per day and this way used to have our meal etc. B. S.: What was your immigration status when you came here, do you have any idea about it? Did you get any kind of papers when you came? Informant: At that time, who are under British rule, they used to call Natural British were ruling in India and here were English too, I do not knox what they were calling that word, we were not citizen. B. S.: You were going to tell that when you came here first and did the first job, tell me about that experience? Like you were telling that when you came here then there was depression at that time? Informant: When I came here I studied for three or four years, and my dad used to work one dollar a day. But when the Mills started to work then I began to work too. I was 15 years old when I started working, may be less than 15« At that time the Mill used to run for ten hours and the wage was ten cents per hour and you make one dollar in ten hours. B. S.: When was that? (year) Informant: It was in 1933 and 1934. And it was very hard to get work at that time, later on they increased the wage, as they used to pay 25 cents an hour. Then the Mills started to run for eight hours. B. S.: In which Mill you started to work first? Informant: I did it here, that was Ubo and that was Industrial Timber Mill, I worked there first then went to India when I came back we built our own Mill too, it was close to Duncan. When the War was ended we sold that Mill and went back to India. Then when I came back from India I started working in the same Mill but the Company was changed. I kept on working here. Now they call that Mill B. G. FOUR Duct, it is a very big Company, and it is still theirs. B. S.: What was the working conditions in the Mills? Like living condition, and others like that? Informant: In those days they were not giving good work to our people. They used to work outside on the Chains to load the lu mber. I did not do that kind of work I worked in the Mill from the beginning. So, they used to be outside all the time and there were bunk houses to live in, they were not very good, just single layer of the wooden planks (Phatays) like 2 by page 4 four and did the sidings around, and there was a big Angithy (hearth) and rooms in which two or four persons use to live there, so they used to cook in that big hearth. If people were many then they used to keep one cook to cook for them. B. S.: Our own person? Informant: Yes, our own countryman. That cook used to make meal for them and rest of them used to go for their work. So, this way they used to live families were no;t here at that time, they were all singles without their families although married in India. This way they used to work for four years and then used to go back to India. B. S.: So, they used to go back after four or five years? Informant: Yes, they used to do that work five or six years and then go back to India they would not call their families. Make money and go back to India. At that time when the War was there then the Union came the Lumber Union. B. S.: When that union started? Informant: It started in 1942 I believe that. After that then the seniority was there people who had the seniority they would not ask them to leave form the work. Then people started buying the houses before that they did not have their own houses. In this area nobody had his own house they used to live in Company's house, because any time they could be asked to leave and they had to go somewhere else to find or get a job. And they were not keeping anything with them particularly the clothes and other things like that. They used to have one working suit and one other one trunk and one quilt that is all. So, that is much they used to keep with them when they used to leave the place they would pack the clothes in the trunk and tie the quilt and put them on the bus that was it. But when the union came then they had the surety of their work that they would not ask them to leave ao, people started buying the house and the property etc. Then they started settling down and started to call their families too. We were not citizen when the War started, they started to recuit the people in the Army, but our people discussed the matter iji Vancouver Gurdawara, they said when we are no;t the citizen why you recuit us in the Army. They used to leave the person when they would say that^we have an important work to do like the Company would say, they did not repuit me because the Company said that we need him for the important work, I passed but they did not take me. B. S.: You are talking about the Second World War? Informant: Yes, the Second World War. B. S.: Now tell me, you were saying that our people were living in the bunk house, there were Chinese, Japnese and the Whites too, who were working with you in the Mill? Informant: Yes, they were all working with us and they all had the separate bunk house, in all the Mills they had the bunk house, Chinese had their bunk house Japnese had theirs and the white people had theirs. page 5 B. S.: And Hindustanis had separate bunk house too? Informant: Yes, they had their separate bunk house. At that time they did not know the Sikhs they used to call Hindu bunk house. They used to call us Hindu. B. S.: What about the wage, they were paying less wage to the East Indian, or they were paying the same as to the Whites? Informant: No, Hindus, Chinese and the Japnese were getting ten cents less than the white people. The work was same but the wage was less compare to the white people it stayed like that as long as the union was not there. B. S.: So, they were giving less wage to all our Asians? Informant: Yes, that is right. B. S.: There was any difference among Chinese Japnese and the Hindustanis regarding the wage, or they were giving them same wage? Informant: No, they were treating them same and the wage was same for all these Asians people. But the Japnese came here before we did and they were smart and used to get better work of the Mill rate. Our people came later the Chinese came before too here compare. to our people. The Chinese were in great numbers here and they were on the chains outside and they stopped from that work later on , they were all in the Mills . But the pay was same if he is Chinese or Hindu or Japnese, but the white people used to get more wage compare to these all. They used to pay ten cents more to the white people . B. S.: They were giving less wage to our people, but how about the promotion, they were appointing them or put them on better work or not? Informant: No, they would not put them on better job or work. The hard work was outside on the chains, there was no roof it was opened, when there was rain they used to work outside lifting the lumber and carry it around in the water, the work was very heavy and hard. The condition was very bad and hard, it improved when we got the Independence otherwise our people /would not get the work inside the Mill they were working outside in the / lumber^ yard on the chains. Inside the Mill they gave me work first, here "our^eople almost" "73£ ""grading in the Mills, they were not putting them on grading before that, I was the first one got that grading job here. 1 got that grader job by fighting, they would not give that job to our people. I worked as a sprayer for a long time, when there was any steady work then they used to put the white man on that work, Mien I asked for that work they told me that I do not have the grading ticket first get the grading ticket. Still they were making excuses then I got that work by fighting. After that gradually 1% our people are graders now. B. S.: What do you mean by the grading ticket? You had to had somekind of qualification for that? Informant: Yes, that is right. page 6 B. S.: Where would you get the grading ticket? Informant: Here is a Society in Vancouver of the Mills, you have to pass the test and you have to go to the grading school for six months, and then write the test, you read quite bit about it. After the test, if you got through the test then you have to write the test every year. I used to go to Grade for 20 years, and used to write a test every year. First got B then A. If you had 80% then it was A may be 8^, after that you write test every year, you had to work quite hard it is also like studying. B. S.: What was the attitude of the white people towards our people, who were working with you at that time? They were treating or thinking our people inferior or equal or something else what kind of treatment they had for our people? Informant: -They were not thinking us as good but like the foreman or the people who were working with us it was different like you get the relation of brotherhodd or friends, ourjaeople used to get less_jpayaM_would work very honestly and always had the fear too. Our people would not say any-thTng no matter where they were being put for the work or job, but the white people used to be very pushy and used to argue. So, these qualities made them likeable but otherwise they did not like our people as they do not like them now. Still if the white man comes in the comparison with us he is considered qualified. B. S.: So, they were all working hard and did not care for the type of job, because they were thinking that they came out in the foreign country, and they were ready all the time to work more and more? Informant: Yes, that is true. They were all farmers and had the habit to work hard, so that is why they used to get work everywhere. They used to work quite bit and hard, and they were very strong too. B. S.: So, they were strong they were ready to get less wage and do hard work and more. So, Companies would give them work all the time. Informant: Yes, that is true, that is why the white people wanted them in the unions, they were thinking that if they would not come in the unions, then the Companies would give them work every where, so they thought that they would get the same wage. They have two advantages, one is that they would consider us we are good to them because the pay would be equal for every-/ one, and the other reason the Companies would not ask them only to work for them. So, that is why they were in great majority in the unions. B. S.: Our people including you were active in the Unions? It means if you had to go with the fight or struggle for the purpose of bringing union in power or anything like that? Like strike etc.? Informant: There was trouble in many places but not every where, but when I got into it, they were paying us equal to the white men when the union came, but when the union started then we were suppose to get ten more cents an hour, but they did not pay us and they got mad because we were in the union. Then they gave us equal pay. There was little trouble like that we sometimes used to stay home and would not go to the Mill, but they would call us again. B. S.: Then all our Hindustanis became the members of the Union then? page 7 Informant: Yes, they became the members, the ones who were working in the Mills. B. S.: The Companies were not saying to our people that you should not go in the unions? Informant: Yes, they were saying that. And were threatening too. Whenever they used to do to one person whether he is white man or East Indian or any other they used to unite togather, because of union. B. S.: It means the white people's attitude became or changed towards our people, and it became better after that? Informant: Yes, that is right because when one person used to get into trouble or threatened they used to unite togather and help each other. Here one person named Darshan came from India, village Langary, he is also in Canada now. He was the leader of the union, he went to Ubo to talk about it but the superintendent kicked him out of the bunk house that you cannot stay here. Then the next day all the people went to IIatw.fr** and asked those people what was the matter, they told the matter he did not go back and he slept in the white man's house. But then they told that they would not say anything to him if he would come here. If you have the unity it is very useful. B. S.: Now you tell that the Japnese and the Chinese, what kind of attitude did they have towards our people? Informant: It was better compare to the white men. They used to help our people and used to say that he is our Asian brother. We used to get the lentils or buy from the Chinese because they did not have them at that time, no store for the lentils etc. B. S.: You mentioned it before that they would not respect us because we e from a slave country? Informant: Oh, yes that made a quite bit difference. And the other reason was our living or the ways of living is different, like you see the new people who are coming now a days they are totally different but the old people are used to everything here now, but these new comers do not get along very good. But you do not know first how you live and behave with them. Like in the past people were keeping their hair and the beard, the white people used to hate them that they have the lice etc. they were all farmers at first they would not give them room irTthe hotel." At Duncan they could not get into the hotel and they would not cut our people's hair, there was one Chinese and one Japnese who would cut our hair. For staying hfeere was one Chinese restaurant and they had one room there, if that room was available then you could sleep there but if it is occupied then you go to the bus depot and pass your night there. And there was a Hill Crescent Mill which was four miles away from Duncan, so you walk there and can stay there over night there was our cook in that Mill. But the white people would not let you stay for over night in the hotel or anything like that. B. S.: Here in Duncan? Informant: Yes, in Duncan. B. S.: And the barbers would not cut the hair for our people? Informant: No, nothing was like that, they would not shave and cut our people's hair." page 8 Actually most of the officers were the pensioners who came from India, they were majority in Duncan. We were their ^laves^ and__how they could stand us here. One time one incident happened to us, my dad used to sell the wood in Victoria, we went from here, somewhere, we had to take the truck from the Mill for the wood. We sat there one of my cousin was there he had his hair and beard, they said we should eat our meal here, there was Gissal Cookery and we went inside and sat there I was young at that time, we sat for a long time, they were serving to the white people and they did not give anything to us. My cousin was intelligent and he said, they would not serve us, they would not look at us, we got up and came out of that place and bought some biscuits and fruit from the firw Store and went in our truck. B. S.: So, in many restaurants they would not serve you? Informant: Yes, I am talking about the restaurant. B. S.: And how about the transportation, there was any discrimination on the buses too, like anykind of trouble you had to face there? Informant: No, there was not that much on the buses. B. S.: How about the theatre and the cinemas? Informant: At many places in good cinemas they would not let you go. They used to treat differently, sometimes they used to say that you sit here or there It was too much in Duncan but usually at many other good places they would . not let our people go. On the ships they say there was trouble too. Here I ^they say that when first people came here, the ferry used to run from Vancouver, j I now nobody ask anything, but those days they would ask our people go to the j | bottom level. ',^ B. S.: So, when they used to come from Vancouver they would say you go down, at that time those ferries were made for the purpose of freight etc. like x-as they used to come from India, they used to come in the freighter and * 1 would sleep on the ground, then they used to take THe passanger ship at \Hong Kong. B. S.: Oh, I see, they used to come in the freighters? Informant: Yes,those ships were belonged to Jardines and there was another Company, they had the cows and other animal on those ships so they would come on those ships up to Hong Kong. They did not have any place to sleep there they would / / M bring their own quilt_or anything like_that and spread there somewhere and.^^ j /• \ pass the Tight. ~ ~ ~ ' B. S.: And they had the same condition on the ferry too? Informant: It used to happen before we came, the old timers used to tell about these things. B. S.: So, in the theatre you told that they used to say that you sit here at one place on the side? Informant: Yes, it was like that in many cinemas, they would say or ask you to sit on one side.__ page 9 B. S.: As you mentioned it before, they used to put our people on hard work and on the chain in the lumber yard outside, and you told me that you became a grader, and they would promote our Hindustani as foreman or any position like that? Informant: First the foreman was all in all then the union came in power ,^ "j so when we became the unions were here if we had any trouble you go to I the union then they had to back up. Like justice like thing, so this 1 way they were working out. /""^ B. S.: So, it means they would not promote our Hindustanis before the unions? Informant: No, before the unions they would not give any good work to our people. After the union came they used to give better work to our people and the other reason we got out own Government in India. With kthe freedom, the condition became better it made a big difference. B. S.: So, it made a big difference when the union came in power? Informant: Yes, that is right, they used to get better work when the union j came in power. And then we got our own rule which made huge differenceJ Before that they would not think that^we are also human beings. Before j that our people were not in any hous^ where they would work7~"b'ut now you see our people are every where in every department, v B. S.: You think it is because of our freedom? Informant: Ohr~yes, that made a great difference. May be you heard about thatvstudan-U he was Sadhu Singh Dhami here, he was teaching in Toronto, and he was our first_doctor_punjabi. He was teaching in Toronto University, he delivered a lecture—here in Duncan. When he talked about the English and against them, at that time we were asking our freedom, one English said that let us kick him out and tell him that he should not come in Duncan again. He was a very strong person and he did not scared of that person and he said everything which he could say in his lecture. So, they were doing these things at that time, and now last year or more than that there was Gandhi's picture at Duncan there was a big sign in front of that picture that he is the man who did that much for the Independence, so before that the English would not let the sign be there, who would not let Sadhu Singh talk at that time, so time has changed because of the freedom. B. S.: So, you think the bad treatment was because of out slavery? Informant: Yes, that is right. That is how I feel, that since that time we used to get better jobs and better treatment and respect before that the condition was very bad in every way. Now here some people came who are saying keep beard and the hair, I told him that they would stop the car when they would see the person with the beard and the hair, and they would act like a he goat, so this way they used to insult our people wha^tTyoTTTSan do, people were not many at that time, B. S.: You told me that where people work togather they develop personal relationships with each other, even if people think differently still page 10 they would not express that attitude. And you told that outside in the restaurant and some other places, people used to abuse personally? Like you told that they used to make fun of the beards etc. ? B. S.: Yes, that is right, they used to make fun of the beards quite bit. When I came here I had the turban and I did not want to cut my hair, ( my dad told me that you have to go to school they put snow on the head / \ you have the turban you would get into trouble so you cut your hair. *" B. S.: You know I live in Saskatoon, sometimes when you go out and walking some people call you Paki, but the were insulting like that in those days? Like they would use. any kind of terms like Paki or any other kind? They call us now Paki not Hindustani? Informant: Oh, I see, Pakistani. You are Pakistani? B. S.: No, I am Hindustani, but they do not know the difference. Informant: Like back in the past no matter Sikh or Hindu or any other they were all Hindus. B. S.: They used to call Hindu? Informant: Yes, Hindu. B. S.: Did they use any other term like that (Paki etc.)? Informant: They used to call Hindu, they did not know about Paki because Paki were not many. B. S.: They would not call a person by his name and just call Hindu? Informant: Yes, and the bunk house, that was Hindu bunk house. Afterwards, when we got the freedom they started saying East Indian but not before that. B. S.: Now you tell when we come out in any country we all have to work to live on, you think people were satisfied with their work and the jobs? Or people were disatisfied with their work? Informant: People who had better work they were satisfied, like I have been her since very long. I worked just here in that place, nobody bothered me, nobody asked or threatened me at any time, but the new people had sometime the problem and they quit the work sometime too, I worked here almost 50 fcears. All the new people think that might be the owner of the Mill who has been here since long. So, nobody gave me any trouble as long as I worked here, many has to face these things and the trouble too. B. S.: What about those people who got accidant or died or get hurt on the job or at work, what was the condition about these things? Informant: At that time they would not get any particular money, like now they get quite bit money when they have any accidant at work. Now, they have the insurance or so many other things regarding this matter. Now, they get money from many side like Company give some money and the union would pay them too. But in the olden time these were not in practice. page 11 B. S.: If there was any accidant then they would not get anything? Informant: There was compensation and they used to give little bit money, and nothing else. B. S.: Now I have asked all the questions I wanted to ask, but if there some experiences or the things which I did not ask and you think that you should tell me about them, like your experience at work and some other things which I did not ask, whatever you want to tell, you can tell me. Informant: Whenever you would come to Victoria again then I would keep it in ray mind, now I do not have any idea, we did not have any idea otherwise we would have written about these things. If you want to ask anything else then ask me. B. S.:I wanted to ask about,the treatment towards our people that is what you told me, you told that Asians were in separate bunks and the white people were in separate bunk house but the white had their families with them, and they would go to their homes. But our people Chinese and the Japnese they were living in the bunk house, you told about it. And there was quite bit segregation. Anything regarding this matter you want to tell? Informant: Just this, that the white people used to live in their homes, but there were also some white people who used to live in the bunk house too, but their bunk houses were better than ours. B. S.: So, their bunk house were better? Informant: Yes, the bunk houses were better and the wage was more too. B. S.: Now tell me when you were living alone here and later on your family came too, but how were your contacts with the other people who are not Hindustani? What you think about these kind of relations? Informant: Yes, I understand, but who is your friend he would naturally think that you are good. In this town people here do not think you are different, we do not have any trouble here, this town is good to live. Like in big cities there is trouble all the time, like in Vancouver city, but in here we don't have any problem. v^ B. S.: When you were living alone here then you had your contacts with the white people socially too? Informant: Yes, I had social contacts with them. B. S.: Personall you told that there was a racisim, but you never had any physical attack? Informant: No, it did not happen to me at any time. B. S.: Tell me about your religious life at that time? When you came here first they had the Gurdawara, and what you used to do? Informant: There were two Gurdawaras at Vancouver Island at that time, and two three were in Vancouver that was all at that time. page 12 B. S.: Which ones were here? Informant: Here in Victoria, one was in Paul B.C that was before I came here, and the other one is here now which was built on Hill Crescent in 1934 then they moved it to Mossaky Lake, then that Mill stopped and they demolished it and now built it here, the society is the same which is running this Gurdawara but we built the new Gurdawara. B. S.: Yes, the Gurdawara is very good and I saw it. Informant: Yes, I was in the front to build this Gurdawara. B. S.: When you were living in the bunk house, you had the Gurdawara over there? The Company built the Gurdawara there? Informant: No, we did not have the Gurdawara over there. These were the ones here. This Gurdawara the Company Mayo Trust which is still private, has built the Gurdawara, then this Company was private too the Hill Crescent Lumber Company they built a small Gurdawara, it was like a room size. There were not many people. Then when the Mill was built here, after two or three years later they moved it here, the Mill ran almost 20 years, then we brought the stuff here. B. S.: You were working in the Company that was White's? Informant: Yes, that was belonged to the white people. B. S.: The Mayo and the other Companies, how they would treat the East-Indians? Informant: It was same. Actually, to work for our people was harder compare to the white people. One time when there was a depression, tour people used to pay even less than the white people used to pay us. The wage was like a standard wage but they used to mix up the hours, used to tell less hours. Our people actually give hard time compare to the white people. B. S.: It means our people who had the Company, like Kapoor Mill and Mayo ,they would not treat right? Informant: Yes, that is right, we had two Companies or the Mills which were owned by our own people, so they would not treat our people right. The white people used to write the hours, but our people used to write the hours and would show one day less. Especially in Mayo's Company the bookkeeper used to cheat like that, he was telling when he got fight with the Mill owner on something, so he was telling these things that he used to cheat for them, bis name is Dharma and living in Vancouver. If somebody would say that hi Dharma you did not pay for one day, he would give the pay for that day then next time he would cheat again. (That bookkeeper was the relative of Mayo's Company.) They were not ,-paying for the full time. B. S.: It means if they would work for five days and they were paying for four days? Informant: Yes,they would keep one day out of one month. page 13 If somebody would know and ask for that you missed one day or I did not get the wage according to the time, then they would pay if somebody would not know they would cheat the time, B. S.: So, it means,: there was no difference for our people if they would work for our people or for the white people, you are saying that to work for the white people was better? Informant: Yes, that is right, one who worked in white men's Mill he would not go to our people's Mill and work for him. B. S.: Was there quota in the Mills for Hindustanis? Informant: No, there was no quota,it was their will they would keep as many as they wanted. ./ J B. S.: And the wage was less in all the Mills, but our people used to keep the time or a day, would not pay full according to the time that was spent on the job. They would keep one day wage. Informant: Our people and the Chinese used to get less pay and work more, they kept on working. B. S.: They used to pay less to the Chinese too? Informant: Yes, less wage to the Chinese too. That is why there were more Chinese and our people who work for them. When the union came to power then they had to pay the fixed wage for the same trork to everybody. B. S.: So, it means our people would get less wage and work hard then the Companies would prefer our Hindustanis and the Chinese? Informant: Yes, that is true. That is why there were so many our people and the Chinese were working over there, that they get less wage and do more work. B. S.: Besides, they would not make any noise or disturbance etc.? Informant: Yes, that is right. They had to keep the white men too, all the bosses like foreman used to be the white men, but our people were the workers. B. S.: Bosses were the white people, and the hard work, our people used to do . Informant: Yes. B. S.: Were you politically active here? Informant: No, I was not involved politically, I never took part in these things, but I have been involved in the Gurdawaras, and still I am involved in the Gurdawaras. I get letters and sometimes they call you but I do not have any interest in these things. I also tell other people that they should not involve in Indian politics or here too, we are in this country just sit comfortably what would you get out of it, and why bring that problem here leave it up to the people who are in India. page 14 B. S.: I want to ask, when we come out of our country, our aim is to improve our circumstances, and tell me when you came and before that your father came here, the dreams which you had in your mind,- do you think they are fulfilled? Informant: Yes, everything worked out very good, I got this trouble now, otherwise I was very lucky, my two sons here are working good, everything is fine. B. S.: You think your dreams are fulfilled? Informant: Yes, we kept on working here and used to pass good time. Now, when the young boys come here they say we were this and that over there, I said I would not agree on this, all came here because of poverty and thought that they would eat good out here. Rich did not come, people sold their property or anything like that to come here. B. S.: So, you think that was your good decision to come here in Canada? Informant: Yes, that was right decision. My father called us and we called our relatives, they were poor, it is our country's tradition or the family ties, that if somebody in your family or the relative teed money then you send little bit money to them, these white people are different. So, you work make money and you spend less and send some to them. Now those relatives are all here, and they called their own relatives, at present there might be 150 here. So it was because of my dad, that is kind of good deed. B. S.: So, your dreams are fulfilled as you said, but what do you think of the future of your children? Informant: Up til now it is good, they got their education. My oldest son was Pharmacist, and other two axe in the business they are married the third one is not married yet. They are doing good but these children do not care that much to our country. The people wf my age here do not know Punjabi, who have been here since 55 years and he was ten when he came, so you would not find any person who would speak Punjabi. Here came one girlfi from States she said I forgot Punjabi I told how come you forgot within three years, I did not forgot Punjabi, I did not let that language forget I can speak in Gurdawara too. All our children speak good Punjabi but their children do not speak they speak English. B. S.: Do you go to India? Informant: Not much, I got retired last year, and I was going to go but there was trouble in India, and now we have trouble in the family, so that is why we could not go. I went there long time ago perhaps it is ten years. B. S.: Now you think the condition is better when you came here first? Your children have better condition compare to yours? Informant: They are much better. They were not like that before. They are doing their own business and five or seven people are working for them. They are doing good. B. S.: Whit do you think of the struggle in Punjab, whatever is happening and happened over there? page 15 Informant: I felt it very bad whatever happened over there. With this we are putting our name down, they should not have done it. They are fighting with each other and we are loosing respect because of it and putting our name down too. We tell this here too, we celebrate the Independence day here since the beginning. Last year five or seven people came and asked you are not going to Vancouver to celebrate the Independence day, £wo or three hundred people would come they would do this and that, we said that we got all kinds of facilities here because of that freedom so we will celebrate it. They said, no, we would not let the Flag wave or anything like that, we decided that they can celebrate the way they want, I mean it is not necessary to create that kind of problem here, they should not do these kinds of things over here, people did not know that they are fighting with each other. We are not happy with these things. Informant: What do you think of the Sikhs demands? Any interest you took? B. S.: As I was telling you before that our people are worse than the white people. We demand something and make excuse for the other different thing. They had the struggle because of their chairs, the position and the power but made another excuse. Then if the Sikhs were demanding something that was not wrong either everybody ask for the demands. But they should have asked for the demands with reason not by fighting. I did not like that, see how many people got killed, and our country is already divided into two parts Hindustan and Pakistan, all are equal whether he is Hindu or Sikh and Muslim, they are all same. Hindus are the first one from the beginning Muslims got mixed with them the Hindus girls were married to Muslims, and some Hindus are- have become Muslims, all are same. They are all same, even two brothers could fight too. We are not agreed whatever is happening. B. S.: What do you think of Khalistan? Informant: I don't know anybody what he thinks about it, but I am especially against it. B. S.: Tell me what do you think of Harmindar Sahib, storming of the Gur-dawara? Informant: First mistake The Sikhs did by keeping the weapons in the Gurdawara, why they had to keep or bring the wepons in the Gurdawara, that is how the trouble started, and that was the beginning of every problem. First thing in the Gurdawara the bad people like thief and the robbers should , not be allowed, no terrorist should be there because that is a religious place, whether it is Massite, Gurdawara or Mandar where people worship of God nothing should be there like that. Look at Sant, if he wanted to fight he should have gone somewhere else, he should not have come in the Gurdawara. Some people are saying that they should not have attacked the Gurdawara, I do not know much about it but how they could arrest those people inside the Gurdawara. B. S.: So, you think that they should not have brought the amunition in the Gurdawara? Informant: Yes, that is right, because that was the root cause of the problem. Like Hindus are very polite and they are smarter than the Sikhs. We are Sikhs but Sikhs are crazy. First they started to kill them on the buses. page 16 That was a big mistake killing people like that. B. S.: Now you know about the killing in Delhi after the assassination of Indira Gandhi, what do you think of that? Sikhs were killed in great numbers? Informant: Yes, people say that is the mistake of the Sikhs and some say that is the mistake of the Hindu's or both parties are involved in it. But I feel that way that when things sstarted like that it is somebody's fault, they start by somebody's mistake. After something bad happened then they started blaming others, nobody knows who is doing these kinds of things. Moreover when they get that kind of chance they increase the fight. I get so many papers but I do not read them all, we cannot do anything about it so why bother. Here people say that you ion1t take any part, and say that they are the congress people, but congress did that much work and it is not bad. You cannot become a bad person no matter you belong to any kind of party. Men are sameno matter which party they belong to. They say that they are the followers of Indira or something like that. We have been with Indira since long now they are calling them the followers of Indira. But they do not use their intelligence. B. S.: What do you think of the leadership of the Sikhs? Informant: In my opinion I think Harchand Singh is better, he does not want to separate Punjab I mean he wouldn't ask for Khalistan. If they would have Khalistan then this country would become more weak. Other neighbouring countries and the others they always want that they should have divided the country or have Khalistan. Like in Canada Quebec wanted to have a separate state, but you think that they would let it happen, never at all, because they know that their country would get weaker. If our country was not divided like Pakistan and Hindustan, it is divided into two parts who knows how much that country would have been improved. If they would make Khalistan, the fight would not disappear, besides, it would increase. Khalistan would fight with two sides, one is Hindustan and the other is Pakistan, and they would not be able to do anything because that would be a small country. B. S.: What do you think of Bhinderanwala? Informant: He was not a leader and any worthy person. He was not educated either. For the leadership there should be a very intelligent and very wise person. They are blaming Indira, they made a mistake, we cannot find a person like her, it is a great loss to the country. The leadership for the country is the matter of the intelligent and wise people. Bhinderanwala had grade five, like me I have grade five and I consider myself illeterate person, so he was illiterate man. And he was considered a leader with five grade, five grade just with Punjabi language and I have grade five with English. B. S.: Now what do you think the conditions in India after the freedom? Informant: I do not know, people say that there are lots of changes, I know the country is improved quite bit there is a lot of development in every field or department. But people say that the corruption and the bribary are still there. Everybody says that whenever they come back after their visit. They say that leaders do not say anything to anyone to stop these things because they are scared people would not vote for them. If the corruption disaBttears.ancLthey treat, all the, people equally then the country would Decome diTferent, That Is the big trouble over there. page 17 The Sikhs are saying that they do not give us good jobs. And they say that they do not have the chance to get good jobs there. If we see all around Sikhs have the business, they are in the Army, in every department there are Sikhs, but we are living here we cannot say much about it, people who live there they know much about these things. It seems to me there is quite bit difference than before. B. S.: So, you think the work is better now than before? Informant: Oh, yes, it is a big difference than before. Now we see in the movies too there is a lot of improvement, before that they used to bring the people from South side and put the impression that these are the kind of people are there, but now they show the modren man and the people with all kinds of improvement. So, it is a great improvement than before. B. S.: Because of that difference here too our people are in every field, and on every job, they do not work in the lumber in great majority? Informant: There are not many lumber now. Now, there are very few in the lumber. Now, you can go anywhere, our people are doctors, judges, lawyers etc. now nobody says anything to anyone, everyone gets every chance. B. S.: You know the people working in the agriculture, on the farms, what are their conditions, like farm labour etc.? (in Vancouver and Abbosford) Informant: I hear that and do not know the actual thing. They say it is better than before now. They fixed the land for them, before that the contract people used to take the trucks and keep half the money with them and the other half was given to them. The wage is still less but it is better f than before and they get something anyway. Before that the wage was very less. B. S.: This is because of the unions as you were telling, that their condition is better than before now? Informant: Yes, because the labour has the advantage from the union, they go to the union unanimously if they have any problem. The government gives the money to the labour or the union. But the Companies would try they work for less money. The union improved the condition of the labourer. j But still we do not have--that many facilities like in the Mill. In the V Mills they put the (Petric:i£« and with this one boy died too. So, they should not have these"Tcinds of things. B. S.: Yes, it kept on spraying. Informant: Yes, spray is not good, it effects bad. B. S.: You never went on that side and do you know some people over there? Informant: Yes, I know some people who went from here and bought the farms. But I did not go much there, two or three times, I went there with the farmer. B. S.: You know when the Mills are closing down in many places like Port-Albarney and some other places too, then where our people go for work, and who goes? page 18 Informant: There is a big quality in our people, they find the work somehow at any place, no matter the work is heavy or any kind. They do different kind of work, I met two three our people in Victoria they bought restaurants. These Punjabis would not sit without work, there are some but not many like these white people are walking without work in great number. Some people do somekind of work at home, like our relatives in Vancouver they were working in the Mill$ before but that Mill closed down, and they started to make that stuff at home, and they do the contract work at home. We have another relatives they make frames and he has seven persons who are working for him. And other relative my daughter-in-law's brothers they buy the lot and demolish the old houses build the new one and sell them. Here Gurnam works in the Mill and at home he makes the frames for the houses. So, our people do not sit around they do something and do hard work. B. S.: You told me before that our people used to' get work in the Mills soon too, and now a days, what do you think that the people still prefer them and look for them that these people do quite bit work? Informant: Yes, in the Mills still they want them, because of the unions now there is a seniority, and new cannot get there. B. S.: But many other places I mean to say? Informant: Yes, yes, they are very strong doing anykind of work. They do not fed up with work any time. They keep on working. B. S.: They are ready to do work at minimum wage too? Informant: Yes that is right. B. S.: So, that is why the unemployment is not that much for our people? Informant: Yes, that is the only reason they are standing and succeeded and they make good money too. Now they got the property, appartment buildings, land etc. they have their own buisness too. So, it is because of work, that they do not shirk work, never fed up with it, keep on doing. They do day and night, like the shift work, they do double work. They are hard working quite bit. Like you say that Sikhs want to rule on Punjab, I don't think they can do that. Sometimes I laugh and say to them that leave the idea of Khalistan, see for six months, they would fight with each other. They are very good and strong to fight. B. S.: So, you think our people find work in Vancouver and go there? Informant: Yes, they went there and majority of them found work over there. B. S.: So, you think, the unemployment among our people is more? Or you think it is less? Informant: It is less compare to the white people. B. S.: It is less than the white people? Informant: Much more less, there are very few or I would say rare who is out or without work. B. S.: And our people are less on Well Fare or more or same, what do you think of that? page 19 Informant: Might be very few, I would say. B. S.: And our people help each other, as you say they call their relatives something like that, what do you think of that? Informant: Yes, they halp them and regarding work too. B. S.: You told that our people are very successful, and they save quite bit money, they save money by living togather too? Informant: What do you mean by togather? B. S.: You see, like with Gurnam Singh his two children are living there, Informant: Yes, they save money. Because now a days, children do work too. Like here people work in the Mills, the children work and the women work on the farm. And they get the unemployment too, hard working person succeed all the time. B. S.: Then their expenses must be less too? You think the expense decreases by living togather? Informant: Yes, that is right. The expense is less when you live togather, if you live alone the expense is more. B. S.: So, this could be the reason, that they save money? Informant: Yes, they save money. B. S.: And lot of them are in the business too? Informant: Yes, there are lot of business of our people. B. S.: And educated ones are also in great number? Informant: Oh, yes, in great numbers. In the olden time nobody was educated, when I came first time,there was one person in Eubo who was educated, they used to call him Master, he was teacher back in the country (India). And there was another one Sandhu from village Sandhu they were both from the same village. (Distt. Jullundhur) So, Sandhu could write Punjab and India , he used to write address on the envelope when people would ask him so he used to write Punjab and India then rest of the address in Punjabi, he could write Punjab and India in English. But the other one was educated, he was master in India. Those days just about 30 people were living there. So, Jamir singh used to write their address but he could write only Punjab and India the rest in Punjabi. B. S.: How about the Master? Informant: Yes, he was educated knew English, was from the same village, just one was educated and the other one knew how to write Punjab, India. Almost 30 people were there and among them there was one who was educated and the other knew how to write Punjab and India. B. S.: The people used to think that they would stay here for five years, and they would come back again? page 20 Informant: Yes, they used to stay five or six years and go back then come back again. So, 90 rupees were up to Hong Kong (Indian rupees) the fare of the ship and $100 approximately from Hong Kong up to here, and it used to take 45 days to get here. B. S.: So, they used to make money and save it then they used to go back? Informant: Yes. B. S.: How much money they would take nith them you think? Informant: May be $2000 or so, at that time it was much. B. S.: Rupees or dollars? Informant: Rupees were quite bit too, because one dollar was equal to three rupees at that time, if they could take $1000 then they would have >3000 rupees it was quite bit money at that time. The things were very cheap those days, when I went first time in 1939 you could eat anything in the restaurant even the meat with two annase (8 nickles I think) complete meal. You cannot even stand in front of the store with that much money. B. S.: Yes, that is true. When I went last time, if you buy the bottle of soda it cost you one dollar and fifty cents. And the meal, you cannot find within even ten rupees. Informant: Yes, the things are very expensive now a days. l~ B. S.: Ok ji, thank you very much. The Interview is ended around 2:30.
Titel: |
Indo-Canadian Interview 48
|
---|---|
Autor/in / Beteiligte Person: | Gurcharn S. Basran, B. Singh Bolaria. (interviewer) |
Link: | |
Quelle: | icohc:19; local: Interview_48; uuid: 7839d944-79ef-4435-8f2f-2813f3aad3f2;; (1985) |
Veröffentlichung: | 1985 |
Medientyp: | Audio |
Schlagwort: |
|
Sonstiges: |
|